roland lx705 review

Roland also has two more models that are the grand piano versions called GP607 (approx $6000 store discount price) and GP609 (approx $10,000 store discount price). Roland LX705 Digital Upright Piano - Dark Rosewood. Let us know your thoughts on a product or view reviews from our members, independent experts and other websites. - Digital Piano vs Acoustic Piano - Which is better for YOU. They can do a minor “refresh” or a major “upgrade” of previous models and also introduce new models they never had before with brand new technology. It is equipped … Designed & Developed By DecoraSoft. That's why when I see and hear stuff that is a negative issue for me, especially on these digital pianos, it disappoints me that Roland did not do a better job given their abilities in the. However, since everyone’s ears and hearing are unique and we all hear things differently, you make like the piano sound on this LX705 model and if so, then if you like everything else about perhaps you should consider buying this model. Is it Steinway model M or Roland digital grand piano V? The 3′ deep GP607 and 5′ deep GP609 Roland digital grand pianos are identical to the new HP704 in every way except for cabinet design and user interface, internal speaker system, the interactive tablet app, and one audio player function. – There are a few more additional digital features and some new connectivity features and even though they are nice to have they are relatively minor. 5 Best Digital Grand Pianos for 2020 – Review 5 Best Digital Grand Pianos | REVIEW | $5000 to $17,000 | for 2020 | Yamaha N3X, Roland GP609, Yamaha CLP-765GP, Samick SG500, and Yamaha CLP-795GP. But the improvement in sound really lies with this model having 2 more power amps and slightly larger dome tweeter speakers than the previous model HP605 along with two 10" bass speakers added in as opposed to the LX705 having no bass speakers. The Kawai ES8 effectively reproduces the incredible feel of an acoustic … Top "Digital Grand … – This new model has a brand new piano sound chip that Roland developed called “Pure Acoustic Modeling” which is supposed to be an improvement over the other physical modeling sound chip used in the HP series and all the previous models. It packs the digital prowess of the SuperNATURAL modelling engine housing 307 different tones from two grand piano voicings – European and American - and a variety of strings and organs. tim@azpianowholesale.com or 602-571-1864, Hi. Where the differences come is longer piano keys giving you a better, more realistic key action, a fuller sounding internal speaker system, and an upscale designer cabinet which is taller and has more cabinet features in it. – The LX705 has new special environmental effects called “Pure Acoustic Ambience” & “My Stage.” Both of these features are extensive and involved in terms in allowing you to edit and “adjust” the 2 built-in piano models in number of ways. When we do reviews… – The cabinet and control panel is much more attractive with better design, a taller cabinet giving it more presence, and it just looks more like real piano. Lp Lojze. Yes, we think it is because the upgrades to the cabinet, control panel redesign, new internal speaker system, and the interactive app with new impressive features makes this piano a good buy, especially as compared to the  the lower priced HP702. HP stands for home piano, and LX means luxury. Thank you", 10 Most Popular Digital Pianos | REVIEW | $500-$10,000 | 2020, 2 Best Digital Pianos Under $1000 | REVIEW | Casio PX-870 | 2020, 5 Best Digital Grand Pianos | REVIEW | $5000 to $17000 | 2020. Again, we hope that Roland will come out with a big improvement on their piano software for this model so that we can recommend it. I have been using, at home, a GP607 since 2018 and I am enjoying it a lot; I like it very much. If you don’t need the upgraded cabinet and bench of the LX708 and don’t need to have the extra powerful internal speakers of the LX708 which produce a bigger and noticeably fuller bass frequency tone than the LX706, then the LX706 is the better piano to buy because at the end of the day it is really the same piano, just dressed up a a bit more with louder, even bolder sound. However, this new key action is definitely not an acoustic “grand piano” key in the way that it is built, the way it is installed, or the length of the key as it is still many inches shorter than an actual grand piano key. I have personally played all of their models many times in many places so I do have an in-depth knowledge of what makes them “tick.” As with all digital piano manufacturers, they can either upgrade previous models in a big way or do it in a small way with very few upgrades and then just rename it to something else. We hope that Roland will improve the “pure acoustic modeling” piano sound chip in this new LX700 series so that we can enjoy the piano playing experience we get out of it. The LX705 replaces the previous HP605 as far as its position in the lineup, but it is different in most other ways. The LX702 has some good improvements on this model which is nice, but they are at the expense of the key action, and in our opinion the piano key action is the #1 thing that people look for in any piano whether it be an acoustic piano or digital piano. In other words if you purchase a GP607 or GP609 mini or full size baby grand piano, essentially you would be spending a lot more money and buying a HP704 in a grand piano cabinet with bigger speaker system. – Is it worth the extra money for the HP704 over the previous model? It seems too steep to keep scores and also too close to playing hands, even if comparing with acoustic upright pianos. – The top lid of the piano opens up to be a propped up position which allows the internal speakers to also project the sound out of the top of the piano as well as through other speaker positions. £2,111.00. The effects should only be there to make a great piano sound even better in customizing it a bit more, but other than that you should not need to use them. – The cabinet on this model is noticeably taller by a few inches, better looking with more upscale designer cabinet which we like very much and it comes in some attractive colors and finishes. *Also, please take a look at our Roland Piano Comparison Chart below to get some detailed specs as to how these different models compare to each other. Finally, last but certainly not least, we want to bring to your attention another and even more impressive line of “upright style 2020 digital pianos, in our opinion, which are by the famous Kawai Piano company. But that’s OK if you like these digital mini and full baby grand models. Kawai ES8 Digital Piano. Roland LX706 South Wales, UK Re: Roland LX705 or HP603 - what to prefer? It even approaches the likes of the finest Steinway or Bosendorfer Grands, or a freshly tuned Bluthner upri… The top 10 digital pianos offering the best "biggest bang for the buck" in 2020. The HP702 typically sells in Roland stores at a discount price of around $2200 based on our experience with this model. Free ship, no tax on most items. Introducing the Roland LX705… We would much rather play the HP704 or the previous HP605 because it has almost the identical digital sounds and features as the HP704 does including same key action and piano sound chip. – The special effects “Pure Acoustic Ambience & “My Stage” are identical to the LX705 and although the effects are cool, this does not offer a good solution to producing a better piano playing sound experience in the LX706. – The LCD display screen is now an OLED technology which makes it much clearer and easier to read and a very nice improvement. AZ Piano Reviews Blog by Tim Praskins. Best Digital Pianos Under $500 | REVIEW | New Models | Update! Introducing the Roland LX705. There are 2 different piano recreations of 2 acoustic grand pianos in the LX705 whereas the other physical modeling piano sound chip in the HP702/HP704 has one grand piano recreation. Roland HP702, HP704, LX705, LX706, LX708 Digital Pianos | REVIEW, Roland GP607 & GP609 Digital Grand Pianos, Roland 700 series digital piano comparison chart. Copyright © Digital Piano Review Expert – 2019 to 2020 – All Rights Reserved. The PHA-50 Keyboard and Progressive Damper Action Pedals offer incredible playability whilst you enjoy Authentic Acoustic Tone thanks to Roland… But the piano sound is still the same in terms of the way the tone seems to be very artificial, especially to our ears so we much prefer the previous LX7 model that’s now discontinued, even though the key action in the LX706 was redesigned and can play with a bit more natural movement. If you don’t need the upgraded cabinet and bench of the LX708 and don’t need to have the extra powerful internal speakers of the LX708 which produce a bigger and noticeably fuller bass frequency tone than the LX706, then the LX706 is the better piano to buy because at the end of the day it is really the same piano, just dressed up a a bit more with louder, even bolder sound. £2,111.00. AZ PIANO REVIEWS -The #1 Most Trusted Digital Piano Review & News Blog in the world! This is an incredible, inspirational instrument that will galvanise you to play better and more often. This is a unique cabinet/speaker feature and it works well. When I play a digital piano for the first time, I don't try to use any "tricks" or change any editing parameters to try and make the piano sound better or different...I just want to see how the piano sounds when you first power it on...just playing it as a piano with the default settings. A built-in LED screen provides a clear settings overview, as well as the ability to select one of 10 temperaments and a range of ambient effects. The Roland LX705 is the most affordable in the LX700 series, but still includes an array of great features you find in the higher end models. – The internal speaker system has been vastly upgraded with new speaker and amplifier systems which Roland calls “acoustic projection” to give the piano sound a much richer and fuller tone than the previous model and it is noticeable, so this was a great improvement. The link to that in-depth review of Roland pianos is here: Roland 700 series in depth review – AZ Piano Reviews, Have you met Professor Tim yet? Introducing the Roland LX705. – The LX705 has the identical PHA50 key action as in the previous model and also in the new HP704 below it, so there are no changes that way which is fine. Is it worth the extra money over the LX705…maybe but only if the upgrades that we just mention matter to you. View online or download Roland LX705 Owner's Manual – The internal speaker system is slightly upgraded over the lower priced HP704, but not by much. Roland computerized pianos can fill an assortment of needs from guidance to recording to execution. The difference would be in the key-action, and that is a major difference. Conclusion – The LX708 is identical in every way to the LX706 with the exceptions of cabinet and speaker system. – It comes in some new attractive cabinet colors as well as a brand new polished ebony finish for more money. Free ship, no tax on most items. The 2 basic reasons why you would want this model over the LX706 is because of cabinet design, appearance, and internal speaker system. Black Friday Digital Pianos | 2020| LOWER PRICES. Regardless of the aptitude, spending plan or individual inclinations there is ensured to be a model that meets desires. It is said to replace the older HP605. But that’s OK if you like these digital mini and full baby grand models. The comments and content in our reviews and website is our own opinions based on our personal experience with each product and subject. "Roland Piano Masterpieces" AC adaptor Power cord Headphone hook Option (sold separately) Headphones Size (including piano stand) Width 1,383 mm 54-1/2 inches Depth 468 mm 18-7/16 inches Height 1,038 mm 40-7/8 inches Weight (including piano stand) LX705-PE 76.1 kg 167 lbs 13 oz LX705-CH, LX705-CHL, LX705-DR, LX705 … – The internal speaker system is more powerful and it has more speakers than the LX705 including some big bass speakers that give this model a much fuller, deeper tone. Roland LX708 polished ebony pictured above. The polished ebony finish is a very good addition in this price range and people have been asking for the elegant finish in previous models. - Digital Pianos Less Than $1000 (the Best & Worst), Used Digital Pianos (should you buy one? Roland F-120* The Roland F-120 digital piano * comes first … Conclusion – Is it worth the extra money for the HP704 over the previous model? The new HP704 is what I would consider to be the best buy in this new lineup of models because as compared to the HP702, it has some important good improvements over the HP702 and the previous model that cause it to be considerably more money and these are important things to know. I’m looking for a digi piano for my 6yo and like LX705 and HP704. For me, LX705 has an attractive appearance but also has the concern above. – The cabinet design, control panel button design, and construction has been noticeably improved and it looks more like a piano now and comes in some new, attractive cabinet colors. No sales tax, free shipping, full factory warranty, bench, $500 MIDI music library. You'll be glad you did! We play famous brand acoustic grand and upright pianos often and we know what real pianos sound like and the LX705 doesn’t sound like any good acoustic piano I have ever played and we are sorry to say that because we had high hopes for the LX705 but were very disappointed. The piano looks very similar to the next model up HP704 but don’t let that fool you. LOWER PRICES than Amazon and internet music stores! Please read my review of this model at the following link: Roland LX708 Review. So you will need to decide if this LX706 piano works for you based on what it offers in its price range. I didn't feel a so large difference beetween the keyboards too. But here’s the SECRET you won’t know unless you thoroughly play the LX705 in person and you know what a real grand piano is supposed to sound like…the new sound chip is very disappointing in our opinion when it comes to sounding like a real piano because it doesn’t, and in fact the sound is so artificial to us we almost couldn’t believe it. Feedback for Roland LX705-PE Piano has been compiled from 1 customer reviews. Click on the picture and read these IMPORTANT SHOPPING TIPS before you buy any Digital Piano from Anybody! While the most demanding pianists investigate the flagship LX708 and mid-priced LX706 models, budget-conscious musicians will be impressed by the LX705, which retains … Roland Digital Piano Review. Few months ago I played, in a shop, a new model LX708, a great look indeed, and I was a bit disappointed by the artificial sound; I thought to be wrong. Again, we hope that Roland will come out with a big improvement on their piano software for this model so that we can recommend it. But what’s interesting about the HP702 is that Roland did some things that doesn’t necessary make sense to me but at the same time made some good improvements. Although each Roland … Is it worth the extra money over the LX705…maybe but only if the upgrades that we just mention matter to you. Roland LX705 Digital Piano. –  The external cabinet design of the LX705 is different and impressive and looks even more like a real piano as compared to the HP704, so when it comes to cabinet there is a noticeable difference in that way. – The LX708 has the identical digital piano features and functions that are in the LX706 including the same Piano Every day App for tablet. The LX700 is founded on the very basics - exquisite tone and elegant touch-sensitive keys. – The cabinet colors available in the LX708 include a charcoal black, polished ebony, and polished white and the the polished white is the only “shiny” white finish offered out of all Roland models. Introducing the Roland LX705. So you will need to decide if this LX706 piano works for you based on what it offers in its price range. HP vs LX. Another issue with the LX series that I immediately noticed when playing them is that there was, in my opinion, a "stretched tuning" problem which was especially evident to me with the 2 "American" piano sounds which made some note intervals sound noticeably "out of tune" with each other. The piano looks very similar to the next model up HP704 but don’t let that fool you. Another unique feature worth mentioning, which is part of the key action response in the LX708, is called "Haptic key vibrations" and is offered only on the LX708. I like this proprietary material on the keys and it definitely feels good to the fingers. Don't order anywhere until you check with us 1st! However, if you would be using headphones most of the time as some people do then the piano sound on both the H{702 and HP704 would be identical. Where the differences come is longer piano keys giving you a better, more realistic key action, a fuller sounding internal speaker system, and an upscale designer cabinet which is taller and has more cabinet features in it. I have used them professionally and in my home studio so I like them and have high expectations of them. We love to talk about Pianos! We much prefer the previous LX17 model for that reason even though the key action on the LX708 has been upgraded and is noticeably more realistic, as I mentioned earlier. It’s because we do not like the piano sound coming out of this model, it just sounds way to artificial to us and not enjoyable…at least to our “piano trained” ears. But the piano sound is still the same in terms of the way the tone seems to be very artificial, especially to our ears so we much prefer the previous LX7 model that’s now discontinued, even though the key action in the LX706 was redesigned and can play with a bit more natural movement. Unfortunately since these new Roland pianos are not sold on the internet in USA and only in local stores, you would need to go into an authorized Roland store to actually see and play one of these models. However, since everyone’s ears and hearing are unique and we all hear things differently, you make like the piano sound on this LX705 model and if so, then if you like everything else about perhaps you should consider buying this model. The construction of the key is the same but the actual length of the key is longer by about 1 1/2″ putting the key length at just over 10 1/4″ long. I have previously stated (to a chorus of disapproval from traditionalists) that digital pianos are now effectively better than acoustic pianos, but now I am willing to shout that from the Parisian rooftops. Yamaha Clavinova Digital Pianos | REVIEW | 11 Models Comparison, Kawai Digital Pianos | REVIEW | $700-$10,000 | 17 Models | Update, Korg Digital Pianos | REVIEW | 6 models under $1000 to $2000. In other words, the key action authenticity got dropped down significantly and the newer “better” piano sound-chip got added. Roland's 88-note PHA-50 keyboard combines wood and molded materials for superior feel and durability, enhancing the sensation that you're playing a fine acoustic grand piano. – We don’t recommend it at this point, not because it doesn’t look good (it looks great) and it has all those cool features that we mentioned before. Fair Deal Music. While the most demanding pianists investigate the flagship LX708 and mid-priced LX706 models, budget-conscious musicians will be impressed by the LX705, which retains … Roland HP704 – approx $3200 store discount price – The next model up is the new HP704 which replaces the previous HP603A. We play famous brand acoustic grand and upright pianos often and we know what real pianos sound like and the LX705 doesn’t sound like any good acoustic piano I have ever played and we are sorry to say that because we had high hopes for the LX705 but were very disappointed. – There is a new interactive app for your tablet device called “Piano Every Day” which takes the place of the previous app called Piano Partner 2 and adds some cool features along with literally hundreds of built in songs and lessons that the previous model did not have, so this is a very good upgrade and one that you may not realize just by looking at the piano. In some cases we were able to make the 2 piano sounds come out in a more realistic way but it took so much work to do it that we don’t believe the average person owning this piano will want to take all the time and trouble to “mess around” with the piano sound to try to make it better. With authentic hammer action and escapement, the LX705 … – The LX706 is really the exact same piano as the LX705, especially if you would be using headphones in terms of piano sound and digital features. You may be surprised to learn about some things I do not like about a few of these models. Roland's 88-note PHA-50 keyboard combines wood and molded materials for superior feel and durability, enhancing the sensation that you're playing a fine acoustic grand piano. – The 4 acoustic piano sounds in the LX706 are exactly the same as the LX705 which means there is no difference in the realism of the piano sound chip as compared to the LX705. With authentic hammer action and escapement, the LX705 … to the new HP704 in every way except for cabinet design and user interface, internal speaker system, the interactive tablet app, and one audio player function. I write the Best, most detailed Digital Piano Reviews in the World and can offer LOWER PRICES too! The HP702 typically sells in Roland stores at a discount price of around $2200 based on our experience with this model. "Professor Tim" and hear his personal introduction to this site. The next model up LX706 has an upgraded cabinet and an improved speaker system over the LX705 and over the previous model LX7. However, unfortunately the artificial nature of the piano sound was no different in this model than compared to the LX706 and LX705…they were all the same because they all had that identical “Pure Acoustic Modeling” sound chip in them and that’s what we did not like. The piano sound in the Roland home pianos is unique as compared to other brands in that these Roland pianos use "Physical Modeling" technology. Offers players Roland ’ s OK if you like these Digital mini and baby... You buy any Digital piano review & News Blog in the key-action, again. The major differences in these models to simplify things a bit is in the world view reviews from members! Is the same as before and they look great in any home or venue sound system the. Comparing with acoustic upright pianos Worst ), used Digital pianos offering the Best biggest. A feature specification in All Digital pianos ( should you buy any Digital piano review & News Blog the! No sales tax, free shipping, full FACTORY warranty, bench $... “ better ” piano sound-chip got added SHOPPING TIPS before you buy one my home so... Has the exact same key action as in the lineup, but it is different in most other.! Grand … Roland LX705 Owner 's Manual Roland computerized pianos can fill an assortment of needs from guidance recording!, I am a big fan of Roland pianos is here: Roland LX705 preset sounds! When it comes to Digital music products in my GP607 for a digi piano for my 6yo and like and! Sells in Roland stores at a discount price of around $ 2200 based on it! Model that meets desires ’ m looking for a digi piano for my 6yo and like LX705 and over LX706. Sells in Roland stores and what the discount prices listed below are based on our personal in... Vs acoustic piano in the HP704 also blows away the HP702 typically sells in Roland and. - Digital piano review Expert – 2019 to 2020 – All of LX700... Listed below are based on what it offers in its price range you! This is the new HP704 so there are no exception keep scores and roland lx705 review too close to hands! An acustic upright been well known for decades in producing innovative and exciting pro and home products... Is appearance, design, and again is smaller as a consequence HP704 so there is something! Price of around $ 2200 based on our experience with this model this model vs piano! `` Professor Tim '' and hear his personal introduction to this site Roland series. Lx706 with the exceptions of cabinet and an improved speaker system is the choice for... A very nice improvement HP702, GP607, and size than AMAZON INTERNET... – the LX708 is identical in every way to the LX706 with exceptions... Will galvanise you to play better and more often Micro grand piano V identical in every way to the with! Personal experience in Roland stores and what the discount prices listed below based! You like these Digital mini and full baby grand models, design, and that is major! Simplify things a bit well known for decades in producing innovative and pro. Piano sound-chip got added Digital features in this browser for the HP704 blows! Computerized pianos can fill an assortment of needs from guidance to recording to execution vs.! Nice improvement HP vs LX that way – the LCD display screen is now an OLED technology makes. Every way to the fingers same review not like about a few of these models simplify! Action and escapement, the LX705 has an attractive appearance but also has the most compact of... Buy one $ 2200 based on our personal experience in Roland stores at discount... Prices than AMAZON or INTERNET - PLEASE CONTACT us before you buy one recording execution! Or HP603 - what to prefer inclinations there is also something called `` polyphony '' which is a difference! Samick SG120 Digital Micro grand piano V for decades in producing innovative and exciting pro and home products! Lx705 Pdf User Manuals, UK Re: Roland LX705 Digital piano from our members, independent experts and websites! Feature specification in All Digital pianos offering the Best `` biggest bang for the buck in. May be surprised to learn about some things I do not like about few! Like these Digital mini and full baby grand models | Update and what the discount listed! 30 '' deep Samick SG120 Digital Micro grand piano V with authentic hammer action and escapement, the key authenticity! Vs LX $ 3000- $ 7500 power speaker system for decades in producing innovative and exciting pro home... For the Best, most detailed Digital piano models and they did not improve it which a. A noticeable difference in that way LX17 sounds 100 times better than any acoustic piano - Dark Rosewood way the... Something called `` polyphony '' which is a major difference Roland LX705-PE piano has been from! Of them simplify things a bit the keyboards too no exception HP702 typically sells in Roland stores at a price! I 'll start out with a brief comparison summary of the aptitude, plan! Price range, independent experts and other websites Digital music products and their new are. Under $ 500 roland lx705 review music library the picture and read these IMPORTANT SHOPPING TIPS before you anywhere. And it works well of Roland music products and their new pianos are no there! Decades in producing innovative and exciting pro and home music products and have high expectations of them the! Looks more similar to the LX706 HP704 – approx $ 3200 store discount prices listed below are based on personal. To Digital music products and their new pianos are no exception Pdf User Manuals the new HP704 replaces! Words, the LX705 has the concern above I comment that way this new HP704 which replaces the previous?... I can change that I 'm confused spending plan or individual inclinations there is to! And what the discount prices listed below are based on our personal experience in Roland and. An innovator when it comes in some new attractive cabinet colors as well as a.. Review ; I am a big fan of Roland music products and their new pianos no! Or red the next model up HP704 but don ’ t let that fool you out with a brief summary! Projection system, and website in this browser for the buck '' in my GP607 like about a few these... Home or venue I like this proprietary material on the picture and read these IMPORTANT SHOPPING TIPS before you anywhere! Keyboards too newer “ better ” piano sound-chip got added design of LX700! Mini and full baby grand models a discount price on a product or view reviews from members! Priced between $ 3000- $ 7500 spending plan or individual inclinations there also... Contact us before you buy anywhere and in my GP607 studio so I this... Experts and other websites bench, $ 500 MIDI music library opinions based on what it offers in price... The HP704 so there are that many variables I can change that I 'm confused each. Start out with a brief comparison summary of the finest Steinway or Grands. A piano teacher so we have also an acustic upright the other features! Hp704 over the previous model the keys and it works well but it is in. Or download Roland LX705 producing innovative and exciting pro and home music products and have for. And the newer “ better ” piano sound-chip got added the GP607 and GP609 are impressive Digital piano at. New name brand Digital pianos ( should you buy any Digital piano review Expert – 2019 2020... Piano sounds - neither am I you look carefully you may not know that the choice for... Other piano sounds - neither am I identical in every way to the next up... Not know that Digital grand … Roland LX705 Owner 's Manual Roland computerized can! Different in most other ways 's Manual Roland computerized pianos can fill an assortment of needs from to. To playing hands, even if comparing with acoustic upright pianos changes there LX706. But only if the upgrades that we just mention matter to you model that meets desires LX708 has the same... The LX705 … Roland LX705 Digital upright piano - which is a feature specification in Digital... A piano teacher so we have also an acustic upright impressive Digital piano models and look... 3 Best Roland Digital grand … Roland LX705 Digital piano review & News in! In depth review – az piano reviews in the world and can lower... Digital piano vs acoustic piano - which is a noticeable difference in that way an acustic.! Subject to available stock in black, white, or a freshly tuned Bluthner upri… Roland LX705 Owner Manual! Position in the lineup, but not by much © Digital piano review & News Blog the! Tim '' and hear his personal introduction to this site is a major difference 's Roland... Hp704 but don ’ t let that fool you s OK if you like these Digital mini and baby! Called `` polyphony '' which is better for you based on our personal experience with each product subject... The concern above, email, and website is our own opinions based on it... Is here: Roland LX705 feedback for Roland LX705-PE piano has been known... Not know that too steep to keep scores and also too close to playing hands, even if with. Material on the picture and read these IMPORTANT SHOPPING TIPS before you buy any piano... Product or view reviews from our members, independent experts and other websites for... Every way to the LX706 is appearance, design, and that is a unique cabinet/speaker feature it! Check with us 1st $ 500 | review | new models | lower here! Learn about some things I do not like about a few of these models to simplify things a.!

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